Episode 23 - Dianne Allen - When Menopause and Neurodivergence Meet

In this episode Erin talks with Dianne Allen, an executive mentor to neurodivergent and gifted adults about why more and more GenX women are being diagnosed with ADHD. 

Dianne Allen can be found at: https://www.msdianneallen.com/
Someone Gets Me Facebook group:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/1471331263171961/
Someone Gets Me podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@someonegetsme

Erin is the creator and host of Menopause Chats. She is also a somatic and intuitive coach who helps women in the in-between live with more magic and intention through her signature approach The 5 Cs of Becoming Her. More information at: www.pauseandalign.com

The stories shared in Menopause Chats are not intended as medical advice, but for information and entertainment. Please seek a medical professional for specific advice regarding your menopause journey. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hi everyone, welcome to Menopause Chats. I'm your host, Erin Darusca. Today I am delighted to have Diane Allen, who is an executive mentor for neurodivergent and gifted adults, uh here in Winston-Salem, actually. And we met uh sort of randomly through a through a Facebook group. And since she specializes, uh I was really curious around uh the what I've noticed is being the uptick of women being diagnosed with uh ADD or ADHD during perimenopause. And so uh I'm excited that you're here and yeah, like am I imagining this? Or or are more women seeming to be getting diagnosed?

SPEAKER_00 0:49

I think more women are getting diagnosed partially because it's been missed all along. Right. And then also because it's showing up more. Um, that's why I'm happy to be here when you invited me to come, I'm like, yes, oh my gosh, there needs to be more conversation about, you know, we're all not crazy, even though it might feel that way, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Yeah, so I know we talked briefly before we started recording. So uh for those who weren't there, because it was just us, what um what is happening with our I know estrogen affects everything, so it sounds like this is also a contributing factor to like yes, well ADHD is ADHD is linked to dopamine.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

So when you have somebody who's got ADHD, they're dopamine craving all the time. They're trying to get their dopamine up, which is the fatigue and the difficulty concentrating and the time blindness and all those things. And it shows up different in women than men, so it gets missed. And when somebody is working or they have a very busy life and they're cruising right along, it's easy to mask or cope with it and think it's just a passing thing. But once the estrogen level gets low enough, then estrogen and dopamine are so intrinsically linked that now the dopamine problem becomes very obvious. So now we have ADHD symptoms more obvious, even though they were always there because of the low estrogen. And so now the perimetopause and menopause symptoms start showing up as well. And some of them are similar and some of them are not. And so, you know, I've had I had a woman I was working with that was like, I think there's something wrong with me. I wake up, I have two hours of energy, and then I have to nap for an hour, and then I can do it again back and forth. And we determined that it was estrogen levels in her menopause that was triggering the dopamine situation. So she couldn't keep her energy up for the whole day without taking naps.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Right, which then can cause problems if you're trying to hold a job or your caregiving or something. It's like, oh, like I'd love to see, like I'm sure people would, you know, it's like, oh, I need this, and but can't, but can I do it? Or giving yourself permission.

unknown 3:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Well, right. And what she did, it was funny because she took some time off thinking she was burned out from work. Right. And and she goes, okay, so I'm gonna follow my rhythm because that's what I teach my gifted people to do, follow your own rhythm, right? So she kept sleeping every time she needed to sleep. She goes, I went through two days where I slept like every two hours for like 45 minutes. They weren't long naps, but they were enough. She goes, That's ridiculous. Just that's not sustainable. And I'm like, You're right. And so that's when we started talking hormones. I said, This sounds like a hormone issue and it needs to get checked. So she went to get her hormones checked, and of course, the doctor said, Oh, you're fine. Well, people who are neurodivergent, which is ADHD and gifted, tend to be more sensitive and more aware. So often a woman who has ADHD or a higher IQ or an increased sensitivity, maybe more empathic or insightful, will feel the nuance in her own body so acutely that other people from the outside look and go, how do you notice that? How do you feel that? Well, because we're more tuned in. So there's that, too. I I mean, I feel it all the time. I know what's going on in my body all the time. And so there's so much to be said about finding people who will actually listen.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

You're like, uh-huh, that's a whole other topic.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Uh yes. Because it sounds like the same issues that women run into finding menopause care can all they can also run into trying to find proper care for, you know, be for what however their, you know, I guess neurodivergence is showing up.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Well, oh, absolutely. I mean, I've I've talked to many people who who are doctors and who are well educated, and I'll ask a lot if I'm trying to refer to a client or something, and I'll say, what do you know about giftedness? Because gifted people have a different nutritional need. Um, we drink we use more minerals, say, than other people, and the protein levels have to be different. There's a different brain development in a gifted person, and so ADHD fits in that. So there's a different brain development. So there's so many different factors. And so if I run into a professional who doesn't know about it, isn't educated on it specifically, then I keep looking for someone who does know. So when you ask a doctor or somebody, do you know about ADHD or neurodivergence or gifted, one of those questions, and they say, Well, I've worked with smart people, they don't know about it. They've just worked with smart people. What we what we need, especially women that are having these struggles, like with brain fog and things like that, is somebody who understands estrogen and dopamine and what these things are so that they can do a really clear assessment of what's going on. Like, no, it's not Alzheimer's. It is estrogen and dopamine deficiency. And we need to get your hormones balanced properly. And then if you're still having memory problems, we'll look at that. It's like an art, you know, to say what order, you know, to do things with. So you need somebody who will really, really listen. Right. And it can be so hard to find that person. That is very true. Yeah. That is very, very true. And I think that's the biggest frustration that I help a lot of the women that I work with go through is I mean, the name of my podcast is Someone Gets Me. And so I believe in listening to somebody and hearing them so deeply that I can hear what they're not saying. Yeah, like because it's lonely and it's suffering and it's nobody believes you. So pretty soon there's shame that comes in and not feeling good about yourself and confidence starts eroding, especially in work situations.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

And that's not doesn't have to happen that way.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Right. And especially as someone who maybe was not having performance issues or was able to mask it or manage it up to a certain point. Now all of a sudden it's like, but this person always was good. What happened? Right. And then employers aren't asking the right questions either. Oh no. Because also, you know, we train managers like, don't ask. But you can always ask, like, is there something going on? You know, is there something going on? Is there anything I can do? So that's what I like to train managers on, is like just asking the empathetic question of like, is there anything I could be doing for you? Or is there, but I think also as an employee, you might not know what your needs are either and be like, I don't know if there's anything you could do for me because I don't even know what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

I think that's really true. And I think that happens with way more women than we even know about. Yeah. Where they cruise in through their lives and all these things start happening and they don't even really realize it, especially if it's a slow onset.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Because they cope and cope and cope and cope and cope until they can't or until there's some kind of other crisis. Right. And sometimes when you say, Is there anything I can do for you? It feels like a trick question to that person because they don't even know it's a thing. Right. To ask, you know, to answer.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yeah. Or they don't know, or they don't even know what their wants are. You know, like I work with a lot of women where it's, you know, getting to the point of like, who do you want to be in this part of your life? And they're like, I don't know. Because I've I've been a mother, I've been an employee, I've been a wife, like I've been all these things, but I don't know what I want.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

And then and then so it's like there's a whole bunch of stuff that's all compounded together.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Totally, you know, because we're so trained to pay attention to everybody outside of us and not not listen to our own self at all on any level.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

So then what are my needs? I don't know. Right. I don't have any needs. Right. What needs, you know? Like it's like that's but that's really important, you know, for people to slow down and realize what that they do have needs.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Yeah. Uh I'm curious because uh people might not know. When you say gifted, what what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 8:46

What I mean by that is a higher IQ than average, which is 130 or higher. And I also mean that the person has what we call over excitabilities, but I I use the more current word, which is intensities. Okay. Um Dr. Dr. Dabrowski in the 40s called them overexcitabilities, and that that has a different connotation in English today. And so I look at it as intensities. There's five major intensities, like intellectual intensities are the people who ask tons of questions all the time. They're curious and they always have to go down the rabbit hole. Then there's emotional intensities where you feel really deeply. And so somebody with an emotional intensity going through menopause and that has ADHD will look like they have bipolar disorder or something, or feel like they have a mood disturbance, and they don't. So there's a lot of differential, you know, diagnosing and looking at it. And then there's more intensities. But I see the gifted people as somebody who thinks differently. A gifted brain develops differently than a typical brain, and the person processes the world differently. So either they're gonna process really fast, like got it, got it, got it, got it, got it, or they're gonna take it all in and they're not gonna say much, and then they'll come back with what they're gonna say. Like they process it internally and come back. And so it's just not within the same flow of everybody else a lot of times.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Yeah. And so if someone is in this perimenopausal stage, well, I guess any even before that, and they're wondering, is this me? How how would they how would someone start to uncover this for themselves without going to Dr. Google who's probably gonna tell them something wrong?

SPEAKER_00 10:25

What I would tell what I like to suggest to people is find specialists who have either podcasts or books and start learning. And then what you do is you listen and you pay attention to how does it feel to you. So, like when you first invited me to be on the show, I went and listened to some of your shows. And then I says, How does this feel? How does listening to this information feel? And I could tell, okay, that really resonates with me. So I knew it would work. And so I tell people to do that, to listen. Like my show has 455 episodes on it, and people can go and listen, and then they'll still know if it feels right. And there's a lot of specialists with about giftedness, and not that many with adults, so you kind of have to filter through. There's like seven of us that I know of that actually put content out there because it's still not talked about in adults much. It's looks like it's only a kid's thing. But I always say find and those kids grow up. Yep, and and it doesn't go away. In fact, it gets feels bigger when you get older. And so I tell people just go find, you know, start looking. I would not ask um AI and I would not ask Dr. Google. I would not do that because those are just accumulations of all kinds of information that's out there and it's not always accurate. Right. But I do suggest finding other gifted people or other people that have similar situations, and then ask yourself, is what this person talking about resonate for me? Right. And if the if you keep listening and then it doesn't resonate for you, you might have a situation to look at, but it may not be that thing. Right, because that's one of the things, that's one of the things I do with people all the time is help them figure out what it really is.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Yeah, I was okay. Because I think much like menopause, a lot of different symptoms, not everybody has them. Probably the same thing with any sort of neurodivergency, like a lot of different ways it could show up, not the same for everybody. Correct. Correct. And so then it's like, oh, how do how do I know? You know, I know with because I work with a lot with, you know, and train to work with perimenopausal and menopause women, I know it's like, say, if you think you have it, you do.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Right. I always I tell people if you're asking if you have it, yeah, then the answer is yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

Because somebody who doesn't have it, because I I work in a lot in substance abuse.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

And so if somebody's walking around going, Am I an alcoholic? Am I a drug act? The answer is yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Because people who are not don't ask that question. Right. So if you're asking about it, then there's something there, you know, and it looks different in everybody. So we want to stay away from comparison. That's why we want to just listen and say, okay, well, that resonates with me, or this resonates with me. Oh, I have that level of fatigue. Oh, I have anxiety. Oh, okay. Well, maybe my anxiety is not mental illness, maybe it's hormonal.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Maybe it is related to giftedness, which is dopamine issues. And so, where what's the origin of it? And is it really anxiety?

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Yeah, and then what do you do about it, right? At that point, then it's like then it's finding somebody. Sounds like doing your own sort of inventory, maybe is the word I'm gonna use. And in research, like listening and then being like, Oh, is this me? Is this not me, writing down the things that are you? So then you can talk to another professional who might be able to then, you know, help you with like, okay, now that I know this, because no it knowledge is one thing, right? Right now, what do I do? It's like, great, I know this, now what? Right. So I guess what what is the now what for for women? But so it sounds like maybe hormone therapy if if they're able to do it.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

So the first thing is is have awareness of what's going on and tell yourself the truth about it, and and which is the journaling and looking at it and everything, and then then you start investigating what are you willing to do? Because there's lots of food that will help you with your hormones. You know, so does somebody want to take a more natural plant-based way? Does somebody want to go to their doctor? You know, and they need to start sorting out what feels right to them, what's comfortable. And then they also want to look at if they also think they have ADHD or they're gifted, then they need to have understanding on how to manage that. So that can be all kinds of different ways. And um what matters is somebody that somebody is open-minded and they're willing to try new things because you know we can't solve a problem with the same thinking that created it.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Right. Well, and what it also sounds like, at least in the experiences that I've with women that I've talked to, that this has been their experience, it sounds like what got you here doesn't get you there. Like the coping mechanisms, however, you've been managing it up until this point, are no longer working. And that's when it gets overwhelming for them.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

That's correct. That's when the that's when the healing crisis, as we say, hits is everything I know how to do isn't working anymore. Right. Which is a natural point part of the progression. If you look at how the hormones all go and you look at the lifespan of somebody and who's got ADHD, you see as the person gets older, if they didn't have perimenopause and menopause was not a situation. We even with ADHD and giftedness, it's like there's lots of coping when the person's younger and they're working and they're busy and they have these things. And then once life slows down a little bit, or they get a little older and their coping strategies change, then their experience of being gifted and having ADHD is much different than when they were younger simply because of their age and how things are changing in their their outside world. Yeah. And so there's there's that too. And so there's so that's why there's so many factors. It's like you can't you can't put anything in one big box on this one.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Right. And I see the same thing with the with the perimenopause symptoms. It's like my experience isn't your experience, isn't the person next to you's experience, and it's all a little different. And yet we hear about just brain fog and you know, maybe you know, rage, fatigue, um, you know, hot flashes. Like these are the things that everyone thinks, ah, you know, if I don't have these things, then it must not be happening. It's like, oh there's a whole other thing. There's a whole other list. How are your ears? Are they itchy? Like, is that could be it? You know, there's so many other things that you know could be that.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

I remember when my ears were itching really bad and somebody goes, Oh, that's just an allergy. And I'm like, But I don't have allergies. Right. You know, like, and I'm like, okay, just don't be so quick to just dismiss what's happening as a thing that we don't know for sure that's what it is.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Yeah. And I think, you know, at least my experience with with individuals who, you know, have some sort of neurodivergent tendencies or I don't know, is diagnosis the right word? Yeah. Um, they, you know, like there can be communication issues around that. So then it's like trying to talk to a doctor about the symptoms and not feeling uh heard or understood could also comp I would think complicate things even more.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Oh yes, oh yes. I mean, just like that psychiatrist who laughed at my client. Yeah. And um, and then tried to tell her she was bipolar. Thankfully, she didn't listen. Right. You know, because not everybody knows everything. So that takes a lot of discernment. And I always tell every woman I know, make sure that you're being heard. And if you're not being heard, you keep going to different people or you keep searching until you find somebody who will listen to you.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

What are your recommendations for someone to find to maybe you might have to go to a couple providers before you find the right one, but are there certain things they should be asking, certain things they should be looking for, credentials, anything like that that can help someone go, okay, at least narrow down the pool of people I might want to see.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Well, you want somebody if you're got ADHD, or you suspect you do, you want somebody who specializes in a in neurodivergence and or giftedness. Um is that a medical doctor, a psychiatrist? Uh it could be a therapist, a psychologist, most medical doctors, not so much unless they're psychiatrists. Um, there's a lot of really good therapists around that specialize in it that can help and then decide if somebody needs medicine or not. Because not everybody has ADHD needs or wants medicine. Sure. Um, and so you know, you you do that. You ask questions. What do you know about these things? Um, same thing with menopause and perimenopause. You only want to talk to people who really are educated, specifically educated. And then the I think one of the most important things is when you're asking the questions, is the person listening to you? Right. Are they asking discerning questions? Back. Are they asking you things, right? And then to most importantly, I believe, is to ask yourself kind of silently, like, how does how is this landing on me? How is this interaction landing on me? Am I feeling heard? Am I feeling valued? Is what the person's saying relevant to the questions I'm asking? You know, is what is what's happening here something that I can trust on some level? And if any part of you is hesitant or doesn't feel like it can be trusted, I would go to the next person.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

You know, um, and then you what I do is I do a lot of mentoring for people. And so one of the things that I do for some of my clients is I will call up the practitioner and interview them and say I have a referral for you, and these are the situations and ask all a lot of the discerning questions. And then we at least know that's an angle to take. Sure. And then they can go see if it feels right, you know. So you can always have an advocate kind of do those kinds of things. But a really big one is if any red flag, even a little tiny bit, goes off, go to go to somebody else. There's plenty of people who will understand you.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

And that red flag is going to be different for everybody. Correct. That's why it's not a one, it's not a one answer.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

And that's why there can be lots of people that can help others because there's a person for everyone. Right, right. You know, and sometimes you'll find somebody who's really perfect and helping you, and then all of a sudden it kind of it kind of gets stagnant. And that to me, that means you've grown to the next level, and it's time to get other people to come in and support you and help you. Um, you know, and that's totally cool.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Yeah, and it's okay to be like, this is no longer working for me, and to find somebody else. Because I do think that there's sometimes people stay with providers, it's like, oh, I don't like them, but it's convenient, or I I already know them.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Right. Or I, you know, I or I know the rules at this one, or I I would feel bad, their feelings will be hurt if I move on. And I'm like, but it's your life. And if their feelings are hurt, then that's on them. You know, there's things to do, but people tend to do things like that, yeah. And um, or stick with somebody who they don't like because of all the different reasons, you know, like it's too it's close or it's easy, or at least they know the rules, or they have my records, they take my insurance. There's lots of people who take your insurance.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Yeah. The um is there so for menopause, there's menopause.org where you can find practitioners that are specialized. Is there something similar for ADHD, neurodivergence, giftedness?

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Oh, that's a good one. Um, the Sang website ha does good for giftedness with certain providers. Um and then there's a few of us, Adal, that have websites like Intergifted's a really good group. Hoagies is a really good group, hoagies.org. Um me, Matt Zakreski. I mean, I can literally count these fingers. The people who are um helping neurodivergent gifted adults. Yeah. And so you can even search it, you know, neurodivergent gifted adult help, and you'll probably get one of us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

No, that's great because that's what I, you know, people don't know where to find menopause care. I just came up this week in a in a group that I manage online where someone's like, Does anyone know where I can find a good doctor? And I said, you know, I only looked at the first page and there were some people in the local healthcare system that were in there. And I said, you know, I didn't dig down, there's 15 pages, you know, of worth of research here, but like check here. And and I maybe take for granted sometimes it's like, oh, everybody knows about this website, but I find that it's it's that they people don't.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

No, you know, you know, it's sometimes and sometimes people don't know that that's a place that they can really get reliable information or that there even is a place, you know. Right. And if if you're struggling, and if I if somebody's struggling and they even have a little bit of shame about it, right, or fear about disclosing it, then unless they're secretly going and looking online, then that's gonna be hard. So I always tell people talk to a trusted friend. Right. You gotta have somebody in your corner, and you know, and if you don't, then we need to find somebody to get in your corner, that's for sure. And and start to say, okay, well, let me just investigate things.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Right. It's so hard if yeah, if you if you don't have somebody that you feel like you can go to, or just yeah, there can be a lot of shame or sti stigma is probably you know the the bigger one too that people might feel. It's not like people might be okay with it, but we don't know because it's not talked about. And because it's not talked about, there's an assumption made that you know, oh, we shouldn't talk about this. And I mean the same thing happens with with menopause and perimenopause. You know, it's like, oh, we shouldn't talk about this. It's like, no, we should talk about this. Right, exactly. Because the more people know, the more, the more information that gets out there, like your podcast, this podcast, different topics. But the more people hear about it, the more then they go, Oh, it's you know, that was my whole purpose of creating this was that people could hear themselves or see themselves in stories that get told and go, oh, I didn't think about that or I didn't know that. Uh it's like, yeah, like these are, you know, because that was my experience. It's like things, you know, nobody was talking to me about this. No.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

So I mean, I I look back and I, and how many times have I been to personally been, and I'm educated in all of it, right? That I have personally been to doctors, and then I bring up the topics of that of anything around any of these topics, and um, if they just brush me off oftentimes, or don't listen, or they'll say, Well, you're smart, you're smart, you'll figure it out, or well, you're professional and you know, and I'm like, Well, that's not really what I'm asking. Right. And and so there's all of these assumptions, there's all of this cultural people who think they understand and they don't understand, and you know, you'll get through it, and all these trite comments. And so we need that people who will hear us and really listen to what's going on, yeah. And then to know that you're not crazy, that there is a solution, and that it's an art and a science, and it's sometimes it takes a little bit to get to a good solution.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

And it's not a one-size-fits-all solution.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

No, it's not because we live in a pilladay mentality society that says, I'm gonna go to the doctor, they're gonna write a script, it's all gonna be better. And that's not how this works. That's not how either of these things work. And when they're working together and you have different hormones and different neurochemicals and life experience and life stressors happening, then it is not a one-size-fits-all. And sometimes it takes a lot of work and communication between the person helping you and you, the person being helped, to decide what the best strategy is, and then is it working and how to tweak it if we need to? And so it takes a lot of willingness, and and I think people think in this culture we're trained, you know, one pill will take care of it. No, that's not neither one of these, neither one of these situations are pill-related necessarily. And if you do use medication of any kind, it's an adjunct, there's other things that have to be happening, and you know, so it takes a little bit of a mind mind shifting for the woman to understand that it's just not gonna be put a band-aid on it and everything's better because it's not how it works. Yeah, it's just not how it works.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Any final comments you would love to leave viewers with?

SPEAKER_00 26:38

That um first of all, I want people to realize that everybody has inherent value and it's perfect, whole, and complete exactly as you are. And I mean goosebumps, and that any kind of challenges because of biology or how we're built is meant for our greater good. And so we want to look at these things as opportunities in like grist for the mill. Yes, it doesn't feel good. Yes, it's terrible, you know, there's all these things, and there's something magical and amazing about you, the person that's trying to emerge. And if you focus on that, it will help you deal with the hard times. Thank you. And how do people find you if they would like to work with you? If they'd like to work with me, they can go to my website, which is Ms. DianeAlen.com, M-S-D-I-A-N-N-E. I have two N's in Diane Allen.com. Um, and they can also reach me through on Facebook through my Someone Gets Me Facebook group, um, which is designed for ADHD gifted people.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Great. And I'll put both the website uh and a link to your podcast and Facebook group in the show notes so people can see those as well and have easy access to them. Um, and maybe a couple of the other websites you mentioned will be easier for them to find it. Um so, Diana, thank you so much uh for joining us today. I really appreciate it. Oh, you're welcome. Thank you for having me. This is so fun. Yay, of course. Uh, and thank you for for listening, watching. Uh, please feel free to share to comment if you're interested in being a guest. Please also feel free to reach out. Otherwise, thank you so much for uh having a listen.