Episode 21 - Nakisha - How can managers support their employees during perimenopause

In this episode Erin talks with Nakisha Dixon an HR leader, coach, and speaker about menopause in the workplace and how to support employees.  She can be found at: https://nakishadixon.com/

Erin is the creator and host of Menopause Chats. She is also a somatic and intuitive coach who helps women in the in-between live with more magic and intention through her signature approach The 5 Cs of Becoming Her. More information at: www.pauseandalign.com

The stories shared in Menopause Chats are not intended as medical advice, but for information and entertainment. Please seek a medical professional for specific advice regarding your menopause journey. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hi everyone, welcome to uh menopause chats. I'm your host, Aaron Daruska. Very excited today to have Nakeisha Dixon with us uh to talk about menopause in the workplace. Dun dun dun. So Nikisha, tell us a little bit about you, what you do, and yeah, what what can we be doing better?

SPEAKER_01 0:19

That's funny. So um I'm Nakeisha Dixon. I am currently the director of human resources uh for Valor Fleet Services. We are a tow uh well, tow, I don't want to say this tow truck, right? We're a fleet services company based in the Virginia uh and Maryland area. I've worked in HR primarily in head of human resources, BP, COO roles for the past 15 years. Um, and I have had a great career from seeing those going through menopause to now enjoying my own episode of Perimenopause.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Lucky you like to find the joy shirt.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

That's why I was like, find the joy in this.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Right, right, which yeah, with my shirt, right? So yeah, it's uh it is different, right? To be like, oh, to be on both sides of it.

unknown 1:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Yeah. And so as an as someone who's been in the HR space, I guess what are what are you seeing, are you seeing a shift, I think, in how perimenopause and menopause is addressed in the workplace?

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Yeah, that's a great question, Erin, because I um I work for smaller companies. I work for small companies for over a decade. And I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done really addressing perimenopause and menopause in the workplace. I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done and well-being in general. It's one of the reasons why I went and got my uh corporate uh certification and wellness, just to understand how can we better support our employees. I am happy that over the past year I see more resources for those in perimenopause and beyond. And it's not a conversation that we have to keep under wraps. Because I remember two decades ago when I first entered HR, no one talked about perimenopause. They talked about it as if it was a bad thing to have. You know, they would say, Oh, she's on her period, that's why she's that way, or she's going through the change. So for someone that's going through the change, who wants to talk about or talk about what they need when it's had such a negative cognotation to it?

SPEAKER_00 2:25

So yeah, and I feel like some of it too stems from people not wanting to draw attention to their age.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Yeah. Yeah, that's so true, Erin, especially women in the workforce. Um, I, as well as you, we're very lucky, right? Because we we can look different than what our real age shows. But when we start talking about these concepts, I, you know, I wouldn't say my current employer, but in past employees or class places, they'll say, Well, how old are you? And then there's a whole discussion about do I want to share that? Do I want you to know that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Because you never know. It's almost the same as like, you know, we always train managers on not asking uh particularly women of childbearing years if they're having if they have kids, or like in an interview, because you don't like, oh, you're making a decision that like this person's not gonna want to travel because they have kids. And it's like, well, you don't know that, and you likely don't ask male candidates that same question, even if they have kids. But like same thing with like, you know, women, it's like, oh, you don't want to be like, oh, well, you know, she's not gonna be capable of doing that because she's brain fog or she's you know, not at the top of her game anymore, which we we know is is BS.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

But you know, it is it I get why people don't want to talk about it. Yeah, you know, or you know, or do I want to talk about it? I'm I'm lucky, and then particularly in HR, often uh there's a lot of women. And so I I'm lucky enough to to work with a lot of women and and report to you know uh women. So I don't feel weird having those conversations, but if I reported to a man, uh maybe.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Yeah, a hundred percent. And that just goes back to like educating your leaders on what perimenopause and hormonal health in general is. Um, I do speaking outside of work, and one of my clients, just as you know, as late as last week or as early as last week, said, Can you talk to doing can you do a workshop, a virtual workshop, and just educate my team on perimenopause? And I was like, really? And it wasn't a large company, it was a mid-sized company, and the woman was not an HR, she just someone I knew by chance, and just said, we always do a monthly well-being topic. And I want this year to be about topics that are affecting our workplace or past and traditional discussions. And I think that a lot of employers can really benefit from that. Um, you know, we talk about ADA in the workplace, and we talk about, like I mentioned, mental health and how we can do better at that, but let's talk about the woman executive that has brain fog, because that was my first symptom. I was like, oh my gosh, I have this, I have that, right? I went to my doctor and already Googled symptom myself about all the things I had. And the doctor was like, No, you have this. And I was like, Well, what is that? And how can I support myself? And what do you mean it's gonna be going on for as you know, 15, 20 years? How am I gonna manage with that? What medication can I take? Um, just all these things, but the next hour I had to go back on a on a webinar call or I had to go prepare for a board meeting. And what resources can I tell my manager that I need to be successful for the next 15 years?

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Yeah. And how so how what recommendations would you have for I guess companies and managers uh and even employees in some ways wanted to agogate for themselves, but also for managers, like to educate themselves? Or what would you recommend that organizations do?

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Yeah, that's a good question. The first thing is education. I think back to 2008 when we had the financial crisis. And I like to I like to put draw together other things that happened and in the past um that employees were were very, very connected to because it shows that not only is perimenopause and beyond, I call it beyond because it's peri-menopause, it's menopause, it's life, right? Um, but during 2008, when people were worried about their homes, it was a financial crisis, it was the real estate market was just going down. We offered education about how to manage your money, um, refinancing, how to save your home. So, why are we not doing the same kind of education for our employees that are going through this, that may have a significant other or a mother or a daughter that's going through this and want to know how can I best support that person, but also how can I best support each other? We don't have to know each other's ages to know that, hey, we need to be more um compassionate in the workforce and understanding. And especially me, I've worked in male-dominated fields my entire career. It's you know, it's it's what I love. But I never assume that they're gonna know what I need, and and I never assume that I'm gonna know what their need. It's all about that education component. So hold those life balance workshop workshops. Don't make them transparent, don't make them transparent, but don't do the usual, right? The and when I say the usual, don't just tell the EAP, hey, do a general discussion about all the things. Start looking into things that not only matter to your workforce that are that are very global and perimenopause over the past year. It is there's companies that are built all around how to support us women. Um it's it's growing. So we need to learn more how best to support each other and how best to help others support themselves.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Yeah, and I think you know, some of it is that even the employees themselves might not realize that they're going through it. So they don't know the symptoms to look like you said. You're like, oh, I had this symptom, but I thought it was like all these other things. I Googled it and Dr. Google told me it was all these other things.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Yeah, yeah. Dr. Google told me I was going to lose all these things, and I was like, oh man, we'll end the world together.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

But you're right.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

So right.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

Yeah. And so I feel like there's a there's a part of it that is, you know, the education of ourselves, the education of other managers, compassion and empathy for the experiences that people are going through, which I feel in some ways the global pandemic that we all went through helped at least shine a light a little bit on the fact that like people have different needs. You know, at the time I was working in a law firm, and you know, a bigger thing, we were doing a lot of little uh like employee resource groups, and some of them were around um child care in the home and like people who were working and then also had their kids at home. But then it was like realizing that there was a difference in populations between the partners who had certain means to have like a live and nanny or, you know, versus the associates who weren't there yet in their career to be able to afford that because they're still paying off law school. And so, you know, also recognizing that I I think I loved what you said about the idea of looking at your population and what are the what are they going through and what are their needs and then customizing training from that perspective. And age aside, I mean, um perimenopause can start in your 30s and it could and it could also start in your 50s. So there's not a, you know, there's certainly averages, but you know, it could start that early. And I I for one know uh definitely that in my 30s this wasn't on my radar and had no clue whatsoever that, you know, and didn't know until I was postmenopausal that I was actually perimenopausal this whole time. Um, you know, so so how I I don't know if my employer at the time would have it's funny, I'm I even wonder I'm thinking this out loud, but like I wonder if I would have even gone to a a workshop like that because I I would have been like, well, that doesn't, that's not me.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Yeah. Me too. I would do the same thing five years ago, especially now because people are having kids in their 50s, and you know, and I just saw a woman 58 um having a baby talking about having her next, you know, medical technology has allowed so much, so we don't think about it. And then, you know, like you mentioned, Erin, about I was on this in my 30s, that's going through, you know, for me in my 40s, and I'm like, wait, what? What does that mean? And then it's kind of also a little a little bit more than that because you start thinking about well, well, what I don't want any more kids, but I now I'm kind of getting to the point where I don't get to have the choice. So it's like grieving something you don't even want, but you just want the option. I don't always like ice cream, but I like to have them in the freezer, yeah, right. So I'm like, huh, what if I couldn't have ice cream anymore? Would I I might not even, you know, I don't even know. The option is gone. And it's all of the things that you mentioned. It's like there's so much education an employer can provide through the health insurance or your EAP, they're just going out and getting a speaker. Because again, I might, you know, there might be someone 25, and you know, you never know when Periminipause is going to start. But at that point, hey, it may not be a concern, but you know, who knows what's going to happen in the future. But giving the education out there, at least giving the option, because again, like any kind of workshop you offer to your employee population, uh, they may or may not go. I think another good thing for employers too is that flexible. Uh, we talked a little bit about it, about this before in a previous discussion, but flexible workplaces, right? Um I know personally for me and a lot of the people that I support that have been through um perimenopause and beyond, or going through rather, the flexibility. You know, when you have that brain fog, when you're really tired, yeah, when you're trying to figure out your lags and you're trying to figure out if hormone replacement therapy is something that you want to go through when you're like me and you're grieving and you're like, but I don't even, you're trying to figure it all out. Like, why am I sad? What is you know, why what does this all mean? Having the flexibility, being able to um whether work from home, I know we all can't do it, but a lot of companies can. Change your schedules, just being open-minded. Not only is that good for those of us carrying menopause and beyond, but it's also good for your workplace. Life is changing so much, and we need to keep ahead of it. And flexibility for people is important because all doctors are not going to be open after 5 p.m.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Yeah, and it's also helpful for people to feel like, oh, this is a workplace that cares about me. And they care about me as a human and my whole self, not just the work output that I'm giving them.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

I I love that. I love that part, you know, because exactly sometimes when as an HR leader, I think about for the employee, but I don't think about the employer, right? It's because if we're doing the right thing for our employee, then it's just going to show us the employer. But it is for it is important that employers are showing that they are places that people want to work because they care.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

Yeah. And then people might stay longer too, right? Then so it helps with retention from so if we look at it, if we want to look at it from the employer's perspective, it's like if I'm doing these things, then maybe this person will choose to stay in the workplace longer because they feel like they can be honest about what's going on with them without there being repercussions, to be like, listen, this is something that's going on. I'm working through it and trying to, you know, figure it out. And, you know, my sleep's really bad. And so now I uh it would be great if I could start at 10 o'clock instead of at eight o'clock, because then I can sleep in a little bit longer and be more productive. And maybe you're working a little later, but you know, it's it's all a balance, right? And just but having that flexibility, like you mentioned, can be so it's it's such a small thing. It doesn't cost anything. Right doesn't cost anything.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

No, fostering a culture of psychological safety, yeah, right. Making people not even making, I don't want to say I never want to say make, I want to say ensuring that people know that this is going to be a place that is safe, that if you need uh access to cold water, that if you need desk stands, if you just need quiet spaces, request it. If we can provide it, we will just be mindful of these things.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Yeah. And as managers too, like letting them know, like, hey, you know, don't don't jump to conclusions that it's about performance. Like maybe check in. I always like to say people before process. So like check in with the person and then move into like, okay, what's actually going on and have a dialogue. Don't come in like accusatory of like, you know, because you're only looking at you're only looking at part of this part of the problem, right? So you're might only be saying, like, oh, like you seem to to not, you seem to be forgetting things lately. Okay, but that's you know, let's let's talk about, you know, the the whole the whole issue, not just like what you're seeing. It's like, what's going on for you? But also then knowing that you're creating that space, that psychologically safe space, that someone can then feel feel okay, saying, you know what, I actually don't know what's going on with me, but you're right. I've been more forgetful lately because again, maybe I don't know that this might be, you know, perimenopause or or beyond. And and so it's like, oh, let me, yeah, let's let's talk about this or what might help me. I don't know, let me think about that, or I'm gonna start writing things down, or I'm gonna start, you know, like I have to put things on the to-do list. Like I have a to-do list app. And if it doesn't get on there, it doesn't happen, or it might happen, but I'll it might be late. Because I won't remember. And then I remember at 3 a.m. and like, oh, I gotta go add that thing to my list. So making sure that, you know, there, yes, and yeah, and then our workplaces are not designed for focused work anymore. It's like a lot of like meetings, meetings, meetings, interruptions, and that might not work best for someone either. So, you know, are there times, and again, back to the flexibility of like, okay, maybe I, you know, leave work a little early on a Friday because on Saturday I'm going to do two hours worth of work that I can fully concentrate and you know, without getting, you know, interrupted. And, you know, again, that's other accommodations that can be made and allowing a manager to know, like, oh, what you know, what are there? You know, what options can I provide an employee? Or what, you know, and really it's about it's not a one size fits all. Menopause, perimenopause is not a one size fits all experience either. So the solutions can't be a one size fits all.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

You're still right about that, right? It's it's not one size fits all. You know, employers, I what I tell all employers is try. You're not gonna hit every check mark for perimenopause and menopause because there's so many that we don't know. We know about anxiety, we know about brain fog, we know about sleep disruptions, we know about hot flashes. But I joined a group on Facebook and I just found like 20 other things, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, let me log out. Because there's so many things that come with perimenopause and menopause. There was one thing that you said that I think I really want to make sure resonates with managers that that watch this chat is that talk to your employee before the performance gets to the point where you want to write them up, you want to give them a verbal warning, and just find out how you can support someone, whether it's perimenopause and beyond or anything going on in their life, just mention it to them, but come from a place of is there something I can do to help?

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Right. If every manager did that, yeah, the world would be a different place. It would be a fantastic place.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

They may not even need so many HR people, right? Hit their bottom line.

unknown 18:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Not that we want to put ourselves out of work.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

No, no, but we want to give people we want to, you know, we want to give people a fair shot because, like you said before, um, the rainfall, the fatigue, the sleep disruption, right? It's just you don't know. And we go back to the big we said before about people don't know when to look into these things until they're in the thick of them. Right. Another thing that you mentioned, I want to make sure that I hit for employers is review your health benefits that you offer to employees. Make sure that hormonal replacement therapy is covered, ensure that therapy is covered, ensure that some of the things that people that are going to perimenopause and beyond, like nutrition, sleep coaching, that those are covered. And if you can't cover them 100%, at least acknowledge here is the list of things we want to be able to cover in the future. Because there is there, some people can pay out of pocket and some people can't, going back to the whole price point.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

So yeah, I mean, that's what I always say to people is like, I I feel fortunate to be able to afford to see a doctor that is not covered by insurance for these things, but not everybody has that ability. And there are a lot of great telehealth opportunities as well for people now. So is that covered by your insurance? Um, and if not, sometimes it's at least more cost effective than than others. But that care access to care shouldn't be a barrier for people.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

No, and that especially when it's something that uh affects everyone. I know the math, this is the map about how much it costs to cover its pennies on the dollar. You can cover something.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

And you know, we're 50% of the population, and if we get to this age, we're gonna and we cover pregnancy, we cover other things. So it's like, why is this you know not something that might be covered? Um I believe most insurance is due and we'll cover, you know, uh hormone replacement therapy, but still it's to to even then find a doctor within your network who more, you know, who who's educated in this area, because as we know, the medical professionals often are not either. Um so how can we, you know, it's like we're there's so much put on us to have it figured out when you know we look to our medical professionals to have this information and they might not have it. So I think for people listening to know that your medical professional, it might not be that they don't want to help you, it might be that they don't know how to help you.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Right. And you know what? I love what you say for the medical profession because they're trained in in one way, but you may also need to open up your avenues of professionals, right? I took a coaching class in perimenopause and menopause just to better understand how to help people make behavioral changes and um build routines and physical movement, just to be able to understand that. And I say that because perhaps your team is not just your doctor. Maybe it's maybe it is your primary doctor, maybe it's your OBGYN, perhaps you do get a coach that specializes in perimenopause and beyond. Maybe you get a nutritionist, right? Maybe you get a personal trainer, maybe it's a team of people, and the majority can be covered by your health insurance to help you navigate this stage. Um, personally, for me, I have a team. So again, it's all about making sure that you navigate. Create that you educate, and me as an employer, I'm openly telling you this in hopes that other people will say, Let's normalize curry and a pots and beyond.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Right, because it should be normalized. It's not it the time for it to be like a sort of hidden you know thing, let's not talk about it. There, you know, shame around it or anything like that is done. Like we're like we're beyond that.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

100%. And you know, one thing someone told me, um, this oh, you're gonna gain 50 pounds. And I'm like, no, let's normalize, not assuming what's gonna happen. Right. You know, let's let's just normalize this. Is our stage? What support do we need? Let's get the support. What and and let's and let's let go of some of the common or previous held beliefs about this stage in our lives.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

And you might gain weight, you might not. You you know, and you might temporarily and then you know, so it's it is again, everybody's experience is different. I was thinking about it's funny that you mentioned that because I was thinking about this the other day, maybe it was yesterday, where I was like, you know, if everybody gained weight, then everybody who was over 45 would be overweight, and that's not the case. So it's like it clearly it's still a difference of you know, people's bodies, genetics, um, lifestyle choices that are, you know, uh everything gets sort of compounded. And again, it's a whole person thing and is not, you know, everyone does this, everyone like not everybody has hot flashes. No, you know, I think it's 80 only 80% of people will get them. Um, so again, not you know, and everyone's cases of them, if if you if you're in that 80% that get them are gonna be different. Like mine pretty much only came in the middle of the night. So, you know, they very rarely came, but I've had other coworkers who've, you know, had them during the day, like they're like, Oh, I've gotta take off my sweater. So it is a different, you know, everybody has a different experience. And that was um I think that was the my biggest piece of education when I started when I started this germ. Well, when I found out I was postmenopausal, that's where I was like, I went down the rabbit hole of like a ton of research, getting certified as a coach in in menopause so that I could help other people because I'm like, if I don't know these things, there's so many people and I see so much of it now that I still forget that there are still people that don't know these things.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

A hundred percent. You know, and it and and I and I'm still learning, right? And I love what you said about learning and and growing and figuring and finding out because there's so much that we we have yet to learn. Yeah, it's just a fascinating part of life that um for me, it's I'm just always fascinated by it. I'm like, this is just so interesting, so different for everyone. So I see it as how as an employer, but how can I support you? But how can I learn more? Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Um and then how could you know too that you're not alone? Like that was my whole point in creating this is that I wanted to talk to real women who were having their own experiences and being able to have other people watch it and say, Oh, okay, I see myself in that person, or I see myself in that person's story, and so now I don't feel as alone, or oh, I thought it was just me, and you know what, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Yeah, you're so right. You're I'm gonna say three years ago, parametoplass was a passing thought, right? We would just, you know, we would use different settings, but now it's like I want someone to identify, and I'm glad you have this um this show, this chat, because I want to talk about it and I want others to know to normalize it. And I don't want to be able to, I want to be able to say, hey Aaron, this happened. Have you experienced this? And have someone I know and I can trust and that I can talk to about. So we have a lot of work as employers in general, all employers, yeah, and best supporting our employees. But I also last thing I want to say is employees come to your HR departments, let us know what resources we can best have to support you. We're learning just alongside you. We're using AI to learn, we're going to classes, we're doing all the things, but we don't know all the things, even if we're experiencing perimenopause and beyond. So it's just an open communication and just letting us know how we can best support um you and your team members.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Yeah, I love that. Thank you. Anything else you want to share before we wrap up today?

SPEAKER_01 26:33

No, nothing to share. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for being here and fighting the good fight, as I like to say.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

I'm trying.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Well, thank you everyone for listening today. Uh, please, you know, feel free to share this, uh, particularly with your perimenopausal uh and beyond folks and people even before that, so that they know what to expect in the future. If you're interested in being a guest, please reach out. I would love to have you. Uh otherwise, I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. Thanks, everyone.